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Thursday, July 02, 2009
Larry Elder :: Townhall.com Columnist
'45 Million Americans' - Who Are These Guys? Part 3
by Larry Elder
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"President Barack Obama says that he can pay for his goal to provide health care insurance for every American without it. Why isn't that good enough for you?"

Elder: Yes, the President says that he can "pay for" his goal of providing health insurance for every American without it. Care to bet on that?

When government proposes a program, the ultimate price tag inevitably exceeds projections. In "Why Government Doesn't Work," libertarian Harry Browne wrote: "Most older people now find it harder to get adequate medical service. Naturally, the government points to the higher costs and shortages as proof that the elderly would be lost without Medicare -- and that government should be even more deeply involved. When Medicare was set up in 1965, the politicians projected its cost in 1990 to be $3 billion -- which is equivalent to $12 billion when adjusted for inflation to 1990 dollars. The actual cost in 1990 was $98 billion -- eight times as much."

Congress, from the outset, placed Medicare on autopilot because of a growing, aging and longer-living elderly population. Congress, from time to time, attempts to "rein in" increased costs by imposing fixed reimbursement schedules. This simply creates an incentive on the part of doctors and hospitals to schedule a lot of unnecessary tests or to "pingpong" patients from specialist to specialist in order to evade the artificial limits. This also forces doctors and hospitals to charge more from private carriers to offset the low reimbursement rates provided by Medicare.

Everybody gets hurt -- the elderly because the medical profession becomes less efficient, innovative and cost-effective, and the non-elderly because practitioners charge them more to offset the lower reimbursement rates provided by the government.

"We need to require all employers to provide health insurance."

Elder: We end up paying more, not less. During World War II, Congress imposed wage freezes. Business people who wished to attract employees had little recourse but to offer non-cash benefits. The government, recognizing business people's "plight," allowed business to deduct the cost of health insurance as a business expense. This put, for the first time, something between doctor and patient, distorting the traditional fee-for-service system, used so successfully up until then. It also created the incentive to get your medical care through your employer rather than pay for it directly.

I once lived in a large apartment complex that included utilities paid by the landlord. During hot summer months or cold winter months in my previous apartment -- where I paid for utilities -- I turned the thermostat off when I left the apartment and put on the heat or air when I returned. Once I moved into the "utilities-included" apartment, I left my heat and air on all day, thus ensuring a perfect climate when I came home -- sometimes as long as 12 hours later.

Now, I knew that somehow I paid, but the cost would be distributed over all the tenants in the building. So the conscientious tenant who cut off his or her air subsidized my carefree use of utilities. Eventually, we all pay, but the effect becomes gradual and diffused over a number of people who have little incentive to "conserve."

This applies to employer-provided insurance. Employees have less incentive to refrain from seeing doctors for minor reasons, less incentive to watch and manage their own health, and no incentive to cost compare among competing insurers and health care providers.

"I'm a supporter of free markets and competition, but that doesn't apply to medicine. Improved technology and research costs just drive the price of medicine up."

Elder: New technology -- in most any field -- initially costs a lot. Consider the cost years ago of computers and calculators versus what we pay today for equipment and applications far faster, easier and more powerful. Remember the price of calculators 30 years ago? Today they are so cheap some outlets give them away as gifts -- loss leaders to get you into the store.

Government-imposed rationing sacrifices quality and innovation while imposing long wait times. But you cannot control costs without removing the incentive to improve and innovate. How many medical-care breakthroughs occur in Canada? How many new drugs to improve patient outcome come from Canada? Without the profit incentive, you get fewer entrepreneurs and fewer investment dollars because you've diminished the likelihood of reward.

Want efficiency? A friend of mine who serves on the board of a hospital in Ontario recently wrote: "We have actually had to send money back to the government because the surgeries -- scheduled months earlier -- didn't occur because patients went to the U.S. for treatment instead. Funding is specific to some procedures, and if not used, the money is sent back. Right now we are losing the surgery money because we have a bed shortage for folks who can't return home because of the level of care they need, but there are no facilities for them to transfer to. Why, you ask? Government regulations make it next to impossible for private people to make a profit. And so the vicious circle continues."

Welcome to ObamaCare.

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About The Author
Larry Elder is a syndicated radio talk show host and best-selling author. His latest book, "What's Race Got to Do with It?" is available now.
 
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It's free! Your insurance pays for it.
I will never forget the day I stood in the pediatrician's office after being informed that my son would require breathing treatments. The nurse came in to bring me the small machine and show me how to use it. I paid attention to her directions and then politely asked her how much it would cost. She said, "It's free. Your insurance pays for it." After going round and round with her insisting that indeed it was not free--that the machine manufacturer was not just making them out of the kindness of his heart and giving them away for free, she finally conceded that she did not know. I asked at the front desk, and found out that I could rent the machine instead of buy it.

What would I have done with the machine after I was finished with it? Sold it? Donated it? Thrown it away? What the hell did I care...I didn't buy it. I just remember thinking that there was a really big problem when someone else is paying the bills and we never see the amount. There is no incentive to compare or conserve. That nurse thought as long as the money didn't come out of my checking account right then and there that it was free. I was floored.

Want to be surprised? Next time you take your child in for a well visit and he gets 16 vaccinations and they ask you weather he eats or not and after you've paid your $20 copay, ask how much the total is. Don't just walk away. See how much it cost. Mine was over $400 the other day. Since we have gotten on a high deductible health plan, we only see the doctor when we really need to. Anti-bacterial eardrops for $150? Ummmm...do you have anything else? $14? That sounds much better. When you don't know the price tag because all you ever see is $5 or $25 copays, it doesn't matter to you--like Larry's utility bill.

We are to blame for this mess. People need to wake up.

Larry
Absolutely right about the 'middleman' the employer sponsored health care provider.

And you make the other excellent point about it's origins: how the 'fringe benefit' of world war II became the national entitlement of today is simply mind boggling. It seems to me that taking care of oneself is the very essence of freedom. To think I have to subsidize your poor health choices is the epitome of communist/socialism.

And the costs of this ridiculous notion is driven through the roof by by a turrd world population that has unlimited wants and little means.

Run against Boxer, Larry - sooner or later, you will make sense, not only to us as you always have, but even the working poor in a bankrupt state.

momof3

Yes look at your co-pays for being responsible and getting preventive check-ups and medicine.


Did you know people on Medicaid, CHIP and SHIP have no co-pays?

Despite no co-pays, they insist on using the E.R. as their primary healthcare provider costing taxpayers thousands when a $50 office visit would do.


The world according to Liberals.

One other point, Larry
If the nanny fascists would get out of business of dictating what is required in an individual health insurance policy, more people would be purchasing private insurance policies.

I'm sure millions have shopped for a private health insurance policy and gasped: not only at the price but the nonsensical coverages they were required to purchase along with the ones they might have wanted.

Unfortunately, the choices to customize their coverages is not theirs to make. It's already been dictated by meddling politicians who think everyone must participate in buying such things as abortion services and mental health treatments.

Rather than buy, they figure they will accept the risk of being uninsured. These are a major portion of the 'uninsured'. If the catastrophic happens that these 'uninsureds' might have wanted to insure against, they lose and the insureds lose by having to subsidize their costs since some level of treatment will be provided regardless of their ability to pay.

This is the lib-fascist plan: create the problem and then making everyone's life miserable and controlled by them in order to 'solve' it, which they never do.

Like Reagan said, wherever there's a free market problem, more likely than not, it can be traced to government interference.

Get rid of sick citizens . . .
Obamacare will take care of everyone from the cradle to the grave . . .Oh, SURE!

1) If a fetus survives past the abortion, they can get healthcare.

2) We won't have to worry about Medicare running out of funds, because elderly people will be "gently" helped out of their tired, old bodies through the new and acceptable euthanasia laws. After all, why bother to fix sick old people? They're going to die eventually anyway. Why keep them as a drain on society after they've finished being productive?

3) Newly legal, illegal immigrants won't have to worry about illness. They'll get the deluxe model healthcare system, to go with the tax amnesty they get on that free ride.

The ONLY good thing about Obamacare is that liberals get old too, so eventually they'll be euthanized along with us conservatives.

Government Run ANYTHING
The city of Santiago Chile had a free market bus system made up of 3000 private companies that turnd a profit (evil) of sixty million dollars a year. The average commute was forty minutes.

The government took over the transit system and now there is one bus company owned by the government. The average commute is now two hours and the system runs a six hundred million dollar a year deficit.

This is exactly what Obama will do to health care in America. Costs will go up a lot and the quality of care will go down. That is what government does with everything.

In current gov't plans
I notice a lot of invasive treatments are prescribed. I know a number of young teens who have had their gall bladders removed along with other atypical procedures for teens. In addition, there is aggressive prescribing of drugs such as Demerol, Oxycontin, Prozac, Aterol, etc... to teens. These are kids who are "poor" (parents always have money for what they want), and get treatment via clinics or gov't coverage. Of course, they end up with more health problems than they went in with; and this is carried throughout adulthood unless they finally take responsibility for their own health . Allopathic medicine often oversteps its appropriate uses and makes matters worse.


National health care is a fright on more levels than I can count.

Catastrophic health insurance
I could see catastrophic health insurance other than that it should be pay as you go.That worked for almost 150 years here.Cost was determined by demand.Of course you still need to line up all the lawyers and shoot ever third one to make them honest.

BULL! Elder you're obfuscating!
You're not on issue at all. This is not universal care, this is an alternative and a saftey net for the fringe poor, dropped, and those caught in unemployment limbo (such as a self-employed contractor).

You're useless prattlings have got to stop! You've accomplished nothing!

Do you have the Congressional Budget Office latest report (it's worth discussing)

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/103xx/doc10310/06-15-HealthChoic esAct.pdf

or do you have the National Academy of Social Insurance latest project reports?

http://www.nasi.org/info-url_nocat2718/info-url_nocat_show. htm?doc_id=449946

Try the New Republic:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_treatment/default.aspx

Most interesting are broad opinions from The Hastings Center:

http://www.thehastingscenter.org/healthcarecostmonitor/

Oh, rrrrrrrrrright! No one on Townhall bothers to read anything outside of its glorious pages!

Keep yourselves dumbed down yuh'all!


ObamaCare and ObamaFare

Barack Obama displays the same characteristics of all Despotic leaders before him, malignant narcissism, total self absorption, lack of empathy for anyone but himself, aggressiveness towards anyone who questions him or opposes his views and a dependence on words rather than real solutions.

Barack Obama does NOT possess the intellect of a Lenin or Marx, but does have ’Cunning’ that substitutes for intellect in his case.

Obama has repeatedly shown his bias against ‘Success’ and his intentions of investing in failure.

Obama is personally ashamed of America and spends a great deal of time and energy apologizing for America rather than sing its praises.

Bowing to a King who represents Islam Jihad, was only a sub-conscious reflex of his personal inner feelings, as was the labeling of those who believe in the Bible and personal defense, whom he described as ‘Bitter Clingers’.

Joining a Church that taught and preached 'God Damn America', that taught and preached 'Black Separatism', having his wedding performed there, his children baptized there, choosing that Pastor as his 'Personal Mentor' and 'spiritual guide' and sounding board - belies any attempt with words to conceal his true feelings.

Barack Obama's quest for ObamaCare is NOT about 'Fairness' or 'Compassion' for others, but about his concept of 'Reward and Punishment'.

Barack Obama wants to reward 'Illegal Aliens' and those who choose NOT to work but rather live by ObamaFare and punish those who oppose him by making them work to pay for ObamaCare.

In reality, every action and decision Barack Obama makes is all about Barack Obama, his undisclosed personal agenda and his desire and need to punish those who oppose him or his agenda or even his thoughts.

Everyone Loses with ObamaCare

"Code named "Aktion T4," the Nazi euthanasia program to eliminate "life unworthy of life" at first focused on newborns and very young children.

Midwives and doctors were required to register children up to age three who showed symptoms of mental retardation, physical deformity, or other symptoms included on a questionnaire from the Reich Health Ministry.

A decision on whether to allow the child to live was then made by three medical experts solely on the basis of the questionnaire, without any examination and without reading any medical records.

The Nazi euthanasia program quickly expanded to include older disabled children and adults.

Hitler's decree of October, 1939, typed on his personal stationery and back dated to Sept. 1, enlarged "the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such manner that persons who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.h tm

-----------------------------------------------------

Hitler was very popular with the German people and 89.9% voted for him in his election.

The NAZI's (National Socialist German Workers Party) created at least 6 'Death Centers' for these Mercy Killings and were very 'Aggressive', about sending weak, handicapped, elderly and seriously ill people to them.

There are over 5,000 'Life Centers' in America that we call Hospitals.

Barack Obama has indicated that ObamaCare will be very 'Passive', about sending weak, handicapped, elderly and seriously ill people to them.

Rick_MN writes: "This is not universal

care, this is an alternative and a saftey net for the fringe poor, dropped, and those caught in unemployment limbo (such as a self-employed contractor)."

And you actually BELIEVE that???

How about you go back and read the very first sentence....

"Obama says that he can pay for his goal to provide health care insurance for every American without it. Why isn't that good enough for you?"

In fact, "he" [Obama] isn't paying for anything... WE TAXPAYERS are paying for it ALL!

But, that's how "he" [Obama] gets the shallow thinkers to buy into his double-speak!




Rick
NJ already has various insurance programs for people who fall on hard times (self-employed contractors biggest "hard time" IS gov't meddling, BTW), as do other states. We ALREADY have these things. What we do not have is communities participating in their own well being and becoming increasingly gov't and other dependent.

I was talking to an unemployed electrician the other day about health care. I mentioned that as a social worker of 26 years, I have never seen anyone denied health care, to which he responded that he's been denied "many times". When pressed for an example, he said that when he needed stitches, the hospital charged him. Okay- so how is that the denial of health care? His words, "Well, being charged for it is the same as having it denied. I can't pay the bill".

This man has five children from a couple of marriages who are supported by his wealthy extended family. He also refuses to "leave the area" to look for work because it interferes with his REAL career as "filmmaker". NJ hospitals will accept ANY payment plan, even $5.00 per month for as long as it takes. Most cases of uninsured people, in my experience, involve will and priorities. The last thing we need more gov't to compound matters for the worse.

Hey Rick, Did YOU read your own links?
I went to the 2 links and the CBO pdf supports not doing this as they state that for 1 Trillion dollars, only 16 million people would be insured.
The other link is to a private org. with an agenda of socialized medicine, check the name.
don't lie and expect not to get caught.

Rick, Unemployment limbo
A self employed contractor in by definition "NOT" unemployed, You Dummy- use Redd Fox voice.

Ret Geek: "Code named 'Aktion T4'"

I believe in economic terms, that would be considered "the point of diminishing return."

How easy it will be for Obamacare to use rationing to facilitate just that!


Ever Been to a DMV - WAIT - WAIT -WAIT

Waiting will be the issue with ObamaCare.

Waiting to see a Doctor, decided upon by a Government worker.

Waiting to see Tests a Government worker will authorize.

Waiting to see what Treatments a Government worker will allow you to have.

Waiting to see what Prescriptions or Medications a Government worker decides they will pay for.

Waiting to see if You can go to a Hospital or which Hospital a Government worker allow.

Waiting to see how many days a Government worker will allow you to stay in the Hospital.

Waiting to see if a Government worker will authorize any Therapy or follow up treatments for you once you leave the Hospital.

ObamaCare will be WAIT - WAIT -WAIT and you will have to rely on ObamaHope, that you won't die while waiting for a Government worker to make these decisions for you and your Doctor.


Anne, universal takes away the commercia
the commercial option. Yuh'all obfuscate this issue with your socialist dogma.

This is an alternative of commercial care.

Commercial care that has increased in price roughly 12% every year for a decade.

NO ONE with intelligence is trying to state that health care in America is not high quality. What the debate is about (for those paying attention to the real issue) is COST!

So, when you got that, discuss it.

Hey Rick, Respond to me
I read the links you posted, BTW the CBO report proves how bad ObamaCare would be. How is it you only want to engage RetiredGeek. Debate me if you dare. You Dummy, again use Redd Fox voice.

OSW, waiting for this health care inflat
inflation to stop or at least line up with the GDP rate of growth is untenable.

You know that costs have risen uncontrolably. That unemployment is causing a lot of problems and the system isn't absorbing them well. Getting care isn't the issue at present. It's cost.

Your concern for getting care WILL be an issue soon enough. But until all those without insurance have it, how will we know the deficit for providing care? To me it's the cart before the horse. Therefore, each in its turn.

This is a broad issue, and to me, cost is first on the list.

This government based plan will compete with the commercial plans. In that way, there will be grades of offerings from those companies to compete. Yes, the plans will have fewer benefits, but then the system adjusts as time goes by.

How is this so difficult?

Accpepting change is human, so, just do it.

Rick
You're an idiot. Tell you what.
Take a drive to the nearest low income neighborhood and look around. I'm betting a great majority have a few kids, live in a run-down house bt drive a really expensive car. Say, a Lexus or BMW...they also have nice nails if you're a woman, nice duds for a guy and they smoke. Yeah, stereotypical of me, I know.
Bottom line, they don't put health care as a priority because someone else(me) is paying for it.
College grads do it, too. They want that new car and to payoff the student loans while they sponge from Mom and pop a little longer. Such a shame that we have to pay for the mistakes and lack of priority in people.

Are there hardworking folks who deserve a break? Absolutely. But they are also the same people who would never ask. It's this thing called responsibility and pride.

Anne from PA et al

There is a huge difference between 'Principled reality', based on facts, logic and reason and 'Liberal Reality' based on feelings, hopes and anecdotal information consisting of reports or observations of unscientific observers.

Liberals cannot process and use anything other than 'Liberal Reality'.

Liberals get used to two words when ObamaCare arrives - 'Wait' and 'ObamaHope' - while you are waiting for a Government worker to decide whether you will receive life saving tests, treatments or drugs - you have ObamaHope to rely on and help you.

In the meantime Liberals should call or visit Government offices like the IRS or Social Security and get a sense of the efficiency and expertise of those making decisions.

The caseloads of those offices combined, will pale in comparison to the caseloads ObamaCare will have.

Falcon, OF course I've read them.
There's a lot to discuss, don't you think?

Anne from PA et al

I recall a study on the IRS (trying to find the study now) where numerous calls (1000??) were made to the IRS with the exact same question.

33% of the questions asked received the wrong answers.

This will be the same or worse (because of the caseloads) responses ObamaCare will give about treatments and medications one can receive - in the meantime it will be 'Wait' and 'ObamaHope' to bring comfort.

Rick
You are INDEED an idiot as Nee points out.

Accept change? Like this?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124650399438184235.html

No thanks.

Accept change? A FOUR TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT AND RISING?

No thanks.

A weaker nation thanks to Comrade Barry of the Bent Knee clan?

No thanks.

Rick_MN: 'universal' takes away the

commercial option. Yuh'all obfuscate this issue with your socialist dogma."

No, actually we don't!


"This is an alternative of commercial care."

Perhaps at first... but just wait!

Commercial care that has increased in price roughly 12% every year for a decade.


"NO ONE with intelligence is trying to state that health care in America is not high quality. What the debate is about (for those paying attention to the real issue) is COST!"

Actually, there have been a number of your intellectually limited liberal friends who HAVE argued the quality of our health care...

However, you have a point about COST. Never-the-less, there are a number of things that can be done to lower the cost of health care without jumping right into socialized health care.

NO FREE health care for ILLEGAL ALIENS would (and already have) cut $billions in communities that have taken that stand.

And that's just for starters!

"Nazi hat-trick?" When you can't see what's before your eyes, you're in denial!


So, when YOU get that, discuss it!




On Honduras
http://noliberalspin.blogtownhall.com/2009/07/02/stay_the_c ourse_honduras!.thtml

Now THAT is the kinda change we need HERE!!

Leftists ejected by force if need be.

Sweet.

What do you expect...
What do you expect from Rick in MN. That is the state that elected azzclown Al Franken to the senate.

Nee, back at yuh!
I do drive through our low income neighborhoods on occasion. I do see the people, but I don't need any lessons about being poor, or what the sociology of their lives are.

What I would discuss is the Minnesota example of a clinic in one of those neighborhoods that is reaching the lower income folk. It's a community center clinic. Salaried doctors and nurses. What a concept!

http://www.startribune.com/business/49290682.html?elr=KArks UUUoDEy3LGDiO7aiU


Retired, ever been to a clinic?
Wait, wait, wait.

Primary care physician or not, it's not at your beck and call.

Waiting is always done.

Ret Geek: Yes, I recall that IRS study.

Scary, isn't it?

Bad enough when it's about your money, but unthinkable when it's about your health.

But, as a poster noted yesterday, Obama's health care "program," in reality, has nothing what-so-ever to do with better health care for anyone, but rather just collectivism and control!



Rick
The only thing to discuss is how blind to the facts you are. The CBO report concludes that for the period from 2009 to 2020 we would spend 1 Trillion dollars and for this only 16 million people would gain insurance. Sorry Rick but that is unacceptable as well as unsustainable.
Wake up, what gives anyone the right to bankrupt America for their beliefs?

Rick
Probably for the ten millionth time, it needs to be pointe dout that health care ALREADY exists in America for the poor. It's called free health clinics, county hospitals, and ER's.

Unfortunately, they are chock full of illegals.

But since YOUR PARTY panders to the illegals, they will continue to screw REAL Americans out of health care.

BTW, those of us who WORK, HAVE health care. We pay for it as does our employer.

Rick
BTW,

Here are the full details on the idiot you, ACORN, Soros, and moveone.org put in the Senate.

http://noliberalspin.blogtownhall.com/2009/07/01/and_speaki ng_of__scum.thtml

Like Comrade Barry the Red, he's gonna set your party BACK 50 years.

Thanks for frauding him in.

Rick from the state who elected Franken

You are comparing Apples to Batteries.

The wait for a Doctor will be NOTHING compared with your Doctor waiting for a Government worker to decide your treatment, before you can see that Doctor.

Rick_MN:You're just bound and determined

to demonstrate how truly limited you are, aren't you?


Post to Ret Geek: "Primary care physician or not, it's not at your beck and call. Waiting is always done."

Pointless!!!


Re Reply #30 to Nee...

"What I would discuss is the Minnesota example of a clinic in one of those neighborhoods that is reaching the lower income folk. It's a community center clinic. Salaried doctors and nurses. What a concept!"

Yup, great concept, and it's NOT FEDERAL MANDATED OR CONTROLLED HEALTH CARE!!!

In fact, there's a community about 20 mins. from where I live that has a fully equipped clinic staffed by doctors/dentists/psychologists/psychiatrists, etc., who VOLUNTEER their time, perhaps a morning or an afternoon every week or so.

Again, totally different from Obama's Socialized Health Care.


You've got some learnin' to do!


The problem Rick
Is that the high cost of healthcare is directly connected with gov't policies and practices on many levels. Since the cost of health care is the issue, ut will not be reduced with yet another gov't plan, but it can be reduced by implementing a few things. I suggest:

Mandatory birth control for those who are gov't dependent. The only people having kids hand over fist are those who can least afford them. Then, largely due to lifestyle choices and subsequent behaviors, the childre end up with multiple health and educational issues. This is very expensive stuff.

Manage immigration so that foreigners coming in have sponsors who ensure adherence to law and approriate coverage. As it stands, the illegal I encounter earn money, send it home, and go on public assistance here. Further, relatives "visit" the US for the "free" health care. This has got to stop.

Then there is tort reform. This would absolutely contribute to reducing health care costs.


The "change" you think I need to "go with" has already been done many times and fails each and every time, no exceptions . In addition, look at any inner city clinic and that is the "change" you are wishing on us all. Not good.

GunnyG-Anne-RGeek-Falcon-CCommander-Othr
Let’s see now, Barry Buttlove is PROMISING cradle to grave Medical Care. He is in favor of abortion on demand, so VERY FEW will need Health Care in the cradle. He is in favor of RATIONING Medical Care so MANY will go the grave sooner. He is in favor of Redistribution of Wealth, so MANY Healthy and Productive people will be paying the medical bills of Heroin Addicts. Look for more folks to work for cash on the barrelhead. Look for employers to adjust their work to stay in a lower tax bracket thus causing MORE unemployment. Look for bootlegging and smuggling to return with a vengeance. GunnyG if you are looking for cigars, start casting about in the Winchester area. My dad worked for a bootlegger and they could get ANYTHING in the Appalachians. Dad told me about vehicles heading south carrying moonshine and returning with hams, bags of potatoes and GOOD cigars.

CHEER UP FOLKS! With a(nother?) buffoon in the Senate, Barry Buttlove in the WH and Nazi Piglosi in the house, the Liberals couldn’t be digging the grave of Liberalism any faster if they tried. Maybe that is where all the news jobs for Caterpillar will come from.

Rick from the state who elected Franken

I hesitate to post ANYTHING to a Liberal that requires critical thinking - oh well.

The Doctor to patient numbers in America are somewhere around 1500 (or less) for the average of a General Practitioner.

That would mean adding 30,000 new Doctors for the 45,000,000 new patients.

The Nurse to Doctor numbers are around 2 - 5 on average in America.

That would mean adding 60,000 - 150,000 new Nurses for the 45,000,000 new patients.

If ObamaCare started today, those new Doctors and Nurses would not be available for two - seven years at best.

This would not include facilities and other necessary staff and Hospitals - WAIT - WAIT - WAIT.

A Good Report for Goverment Health Care
Sometimes I wonder if some of these authors would read the comments made to their article, maybe they'd modify their opinions. But then, like so many of our politicians, they depend on maintaining their opinion, and thereby their income.

This article principally deals with hearsay, so I'll ad mine to the mix. I'd like to promote my experience with one government supported medical agency: The Veterans Administration. Unlike my friends that go to private practices for their medical needs, I have only had to wait for a maximum of 30 minutes—on very rare occasions—usually I'm seen within 15 minutes of my appointment. (Compared to my friends who say it's not unusual to wait for an hour or more.) I have a friend who was diagnosed by the VA with a growth on his liver and was dispatch to have a biopsy within a matter of days. And the VA takes care of millions of people, including some conservatives who I'm sure—on a strictly ideological basis talk against a government option in health care—as they sneak into the VA.

Mr. Elder mentions rationing, in passing, We ration medical treatment in this country now by ability to pay. Similarly, those who come to America from Canada for treatment are the ones with money to do so. If they don't have the money, they have to wait with the rest. But, at least they have the hope of waiting. Not so in America if you don't have a health care plan.



Oldsocialworker et al

I am afraid you and I (and others) are making the same mistake.

Trying to reason with those who have little if any capability of reason.

All we can do is keep trying and use 'Hope' that is NOT ObamaHope.

Waiting in Europe 62 day target

Obamunists want ObamaCare for Cancer Patients

"WAITING times for cancer treatment need to be cut, the Scottish Government was told yesterday.

The Scotland Against Cancer conference in Glasgow heard Nicola Sturgeon, the health secretary, setting out what was being done to improve cancer care for Scottish patients.

But one cancer survivor, who spoke at the Cancer Research UK event, challenged ministers to be more ambitious in reducing the time patients have to wait before starting treatment.

Cancer experts later said that patients elsewhere in Europe would be "outraged" by having to wait two months to start treatment, with most being seen within two weeks.

The current target of 62 days from urgent referral by a doctor to starting treatment has still not been met in Scotland, despite that originally being the target figure for 2005.

Ms Sturgeon stressed that the 62-day target was a maximum wait and many patients would start treatment much sooner.

Heather Goodare, who was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1986 when living in West Sussex, thanked Ms Sturgeon for the initiatives she had put in place to improve cancer care. But she challenged her over the "very unambitious" 62-day target.

"For some slow-growing cancers 31 days is perfectly OK, but for others it is just not acceptable at all," she told the health secretary.

Mrs Goodare, who now lives in Edinburgh, said when she was diagnosed over 22 years ago, she had to wait only two weeks before having surgery to remove the lump from her breast.

"I don't understand why things have gone backwards," she said.

Ms Sturgeon said everyone in the NHS had worked together to reduce waiting times and they were now very close to hitting the 62-day mark."

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukcancersurvi vor.html

Rick from MN
What gives you the right to expect me or anyone else to pay for your medical care? Upon what morality do you base that sort of theft?

Video Clip of Daniel Hannan, UK Member

of European Parliament discussing the DISASTER of Universal Health Care in Great Britain:

http://www.westandfirm.org/blog/2009/04/hannan-on-uk-health -care.html



I'll take it.
If it's good enough for the Senators and all the people in Congress as well as the President, his wife and daughters and all the other bureaucrats in D. C., then by golly it's good enough for me.

I'll take whatever their drinking too.

I'll take exactly what they get and their pension plan too since they don't contribute to social security.

Rick from the state who elected Franken

There seems to be a consensus that you are an idiot.

What say you?

Ret Geek, Gtwin, GunnyG.

OSocialwrkr, et al

Anyone notice that neither Rick_MN, nor any of the intellectually limited liberals want to even address the other MANY possible alternatives to Socialized Health Care?

Chirp, chirp, chirp ....



Liberals when it comes to 'Freebies'

Debating Barack Obama Voters by asking them if they want more 'Free Benefits' or something others will pay for, is akin to asking a Kindergarten class if they want ice cream and candy for lunch or vegetables and a salad.

The children will be very excited and everything will be fine, until the sugar high is expended by running, screaming and yelling and then the low is experienced.

"Free" Universal Heath Care will bring excitement for a period of time until reality sets in.

Costs will soar, taxes will be raised then rationing, curtailing of treatments and diagnostic tests will begin.

Discussions will begin about "life unworthy of life" and the high costs associated with that.

Babies and small children will be considered first.

Should Americans be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to save a baby that is born premature?

Should mere children receive treatments for diseases and birth defects that cost thousands?

Then discussions will begin about the elderly, "How much should be spent on someone who only has a few years to live, no matter what we do for them?"

Next will be discussions about those who are handicapped, "Do they really have a quality of life that helps society or are they a drain on the resources of society?"

Next will be discussions about those who are horribly damaged in automobile or other accidents, "what will they add to society after many thousands of dollars are spent to repair them?"

"Why should those who are terminally ill, drag society down as well, after all the money spent will only increase their life for a short period and they are already suffering anyway."

This was the thinking behind the NAZI Germany plan "Code named "Aktion T4".

The plan was instituted only 70 years ago by a Socialist Government called (National Socialist German Workers Party) or NAZI.

Off to Run Errands

Off to run some errands for my gorgeous wife of 43 years.

If I don't leave now I will need more than ObamaCare to restore me.

self employd contractors
I wish I was still considered "self employed independent contractor" ; the huge health care system I work for in NY several years ago re classified me as a
per diem" - doing the same work but now with the W2 so they take taxes out, employee but not "staff" so I can't buy into the health insurance (and I know for a fact they treat illegals, even heart surgery). Insurance policies for indepenedent contractors are expensive but there are more available, better choices. And still less expensive than what I have to buy. I have NO group , etc and pay the highest rate of all for totally garbage insurance. The highly touted state plans have an income cut off of something like $1200 month BEFORE taxes for someone with no kids, and even if I qualified under that I'm still out because I have been buying my own insurance ; state programs demand that you be without health ins. for one year unless you meet certain other qualifications which I don't. I read where Obama's plan will be the same -- the "uninsured" eliminated those of us who chose to live very frugally just to buy insurance,and don't dare go without. And I'm supposed to pay even more taxes to pay for others ?

Anne
Considering that he voted for Franken, "Where's Waldo" is beyond Rick's Mental Acuity Level LET ALONE Health Care.

RG, Anne
Two possibilities about Rick:
(*) he's one of those who voted for Freaken legally
(*) he's a TD from either morON or MB (two Provinces which border on MN--and both of which have gotten permanent damage from NDP misgovernments) who illegally voted for Freaken with ACORN's connivance

Heres what we do know.

For the Past 30 years, conservatives have repeatedly tried to pass legislation that would have reformed and reduced heatlhcare costs.

Liberals have blocked every reform.

Now Obama is announcing a Problem?

Absolutely Right!
Larry,
You are absolutely correct when you say that the issue here is not access to health CARE but access to health INSURANCE. I am so sick of politicians and the media using the term health CARE when they really mean health INSURANCE. the problem is not getting medical treatment, it is getting some else to pay for it.

You are also correct that a major part of the cost of health care in this country in the aggregate is that, for most people, having a third party payer system INCREASES utilization - AND allows doctors to order expensive tests knowing that the patient will not question the cost. After all, WE'RE not paying for it!

When health insurance was set up originally it was for catastrophic medical expenses, which is in keeping with the whole concept of insurance and risk management. The current system of HMos and PPOs and health insurance that pays all but $5 or $10 of the cost of seeing a doctor or a prescription, etc., masks the real costs of healthcare and increases utilization.

When I was growing up we did not run to the doctor for every little sniffle, because there was a $65 charge for an office visit. My parents weren't going to spend $65 for a sniffle. Now that the out-of-pocket cost is only $5 or $15, people run to the doctor for everything.

Let's get the patient back in the game. Put insurance back to being for catastrophic expenses only, and it will be more affordable for everyone.

Tad, are you a Vet.?
I served from 1979 - 1985. Yes, the VA provides a lot of health care services to thousands of Vets and their dependents but it is not what Obama is proposing. The VA has tons of problems as well, Including but not limited to; Uderfunding, poor facilities i.e. Walter Reed...ect,Less than the best personnel. The VA works because Vets are willing to accept these conditions for the most part. It is no way a model to emulate. Vets have always sacrificed for the greater good,Thats why we served in the first place.

Anne
They don't consider it because they're little more than parrots.

Dear Liberals
You want, desire, and crave a Nanny State that "gives" you gradle-to-grave welfare yet you are BLIND to the excesses.

Just TODAY we have:

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&s ubcatid=2&threadid=2645143&start=1¤tPage=1

Access to Comrade Barry being SOLD

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124650399438184235.html

Congress traveling the world on OUR dime

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/0 7/01/AR2009070100950.html

Obama rigs "the hug."

Libs. Name ONE government run program that works efficently and w/o waste, fraud, and abuse.

computerized medical records
Obama keeps talking about a data bank of people's medical records and how having everything computerized will be cheaper, more efficient, yada yada. I haven't seen this addressed anywhere , but - aren't humans (govt. workers) supposed to be entering this data ? Anyone here ever have a situation where something about them or their business is incorrectly entered in a computer somewhere ? Isn't is fun trying to straighten it out ? Imagine if it was in a govdernment system !

Liberals
Despite all their hollering about health care,I wonder how many of them work in the free clinics.

mandates
Grubby is correct. Here In NY we have over 50 mandates on every ins. policy, they are now adding $50,000 coverage for autism. I am 59, in good health but afraid to go without insurance.
When I was an independent contratcor I had a better, cheaper pokicy through joining one of those Small Business Association groups. Now I'm a per diem :employee", policy choices cut by more than 50% and no discounts. I pay almost $500 for a policy that covers hosp/emergency room (and they decide if it's emergency) and at that only a small group of doctors that there is no updated list for. NO out patient tests, NO office visits except unlimited maternity and well-child visits. I get one GYN/mammo a year. We need a truly open market on health insurance across state lines, where there is competition and customers can CHOOSE what coverage they want and add on as they like or not

jax33
About as many as work in soup kitchens, food banks, Toys for tots, etc.

In other words....NONE

Excellent Writing
Mr. Elder. I would ask the commenters at TH to do me a favor as they debate the merits of your positions. I want them to ask their Senator or Congress Person(PC)if they will be covered under the Hillary/Obama Health Care Plan they want to provide for the Liberal/Progressive American People?

Anyone else notice ...
how many CHANGES Obama has had to make in his campaign attitudes since becoming President?

Close Gitmo? Oh, wait. Harder than I thought.

Get out of Iran? Oh, wait. I think we'd better stay.

Reduce unemployment? Oh, sorry. Stimulus didn't help.

Now project this to health care. Once our world-class system is gone, he will have to say: Oh, sorry. Thought it would work.

The government took care of Terry Shiavo
Now they want to take care of you.

Keep Your Eye On The Ball
Medical infaltion is higher than the Consumer Price Index. Prior to 1950, medical inflation was generally lower than the Consumer Price Index. What caused that change? What is the long term effect if Medical Price inflation continues to be higher than the Consumer Price Index? If the cost of medical care is rising due to inflation, doesn't that mean that the cost of health insurance will also rise? If the cost of health insurance rises, and it rises at a faster rate then the consumer price index, what does that mean to the average person who has health insurance? The answer is, they will pay more for the same insurance. If the cost of that insurance rises faster than the rise in the amount of pay they get, won't that mean that they won't be spednding money of something else, that they may also want r need?

85% vs 15%
85% of the people in this country have Health Insurance and are happy with it. I would like to know why this is such a pressing matter if it affects only 15% of the population. There are programs in place for the so called 45 million. And yes, the Hospitals take payment plans...whatever you can afford if you just call and ask them.

The problem is the word "free" There is absolutely no such thing as free medical care. Someone somewhere is paying for it. If the government wanted to do something about re-vamping the insurance programs they should get of the insurance companies' ways and allow them to do what they do.

AliveinHim hits the nail on the head.
The 10:18 a.m. post:

What gives anyone the right to say that I have to pay to care for someone else?

If I do it voluntarily (through my church or charity) that's my business.

When I am forced to do it through Medicaid or welfare, we've gone too far.

For 150 years, our country did very well without forced care.

ropati: And the list just gets longer...

Yesterday some women called Rush and said that in spite of what Obozo said, Caterpillar had laid off MORE people...

She also came up with a bumper sticker that said, "Obama's Stimulus Pkg isn't working, so neither am I!"

(That might not be the "exact quote," but you get the drift!) :-)


Sarah
Many of those 15% have the same kind of thinking we saw exhibited in New Orleans several years ago.

We could have sent chauffeured limousines to pick up the people, and they still would not have cooperated. It would still be our fault.

It is the same with health issues. We can supply free medical care at clinics, we can supply free immunizations, and we can have numerous public health advertisements, and there will still be people who will not cooperate.

Some are kidnapped
Liberals use their social programs to kidnap Americans into lables that they claim need help. When Clinton was president he made a move that appeared to be saving Americans from unnecessary claims against work place harassment. He had an executive order which included abstaining and homosexuality as classes that could not be investigated as part of APA investigation of work place discrimination. As every congressional sesssion have discovered this has caused a back lash of discrimination by civil servant unions, community activitice organizations and even legal advocacy firms. It would be easy to blame liberals but so called noconservatives have joined the process with open arms. Hundreds of victims have testified before Congress, all networks news magazines shows have done stories upon this abuse, yet until Congress put teeth in the process, that would only be permanently revoking the tax exemption status of all non-profit entities that violate plaintiff/victim civil rights and prohibit all civil servants from holding positions of public trust, including being on the board of any entity receiving a tax exemption or even being employeed by these entities.

medical cost of living increases...
Inflation applies to currency. What you are describing is increasing relative cost of medical care and health insurance. Dr Sowell, I believe, wrote on that just the other day. You should expect medical care to increase because of all of the improvements and expenses associated with those improvements. Some things like government mandates have also increased costs. And providing healthcare to anybody, regardless of ability to pay, which hospitals are obligated to do, at least in emergency situations, certainly increases medical costs.

It is sort of like automobiles. Back when I was growing up, seatbelts were uncommon, anti-locking breaks, cruise control, and "sound systems" (now avaialble with video) were non-existant. There were fewer regulations around tailpipe emissions and mileage requirements. Air-conditioning was as likely to be an add-on as factory installed, if it was present at all. So cars have gotten more expensive. Partly due to the increase in functions and features, and party due to inflation of the currency (Federal Reserve Notes). So it is as well, with medical costs.

Hi, retired geek
Yes- sometimes I wonder why I try to reason with whom I have come to call "Template Folks". Template Folks do not ingest new information- its as if they can't think, only regurgitate. At one time I thought that since I am a social worker who has been part of doing exactly what some think is "new" for years, perhaps they'd listen from first hand experience rather than websites, rock stars, taliking points. etc... Not at all. I get accused of being "burned out"- and yet, if these same people were at all intellectually honest, they'd pause and think, "Gee. What burns out social workers ? The answer is the systems they insist on funding because that is what bureaucracies do!! Such myopic idiots!!

In fact, the reason I'm not burned out is I have a forum in which I can help people AVOID systems, and that is challenging and gratifying. Anyway, it is somewhat fun to try to share experience with those who may not be able to hear it now. Maybe as certain things come to pass- bad things, of course- they'll think about what was shared and review it. Truth has a way of resonating, if not now, later.

Caterpillar CEO contradicts Obama,
sees layoffs

"Company will likely cut more jobs before it hires back, even with stimulus

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29170141/

"EAST PEORIA, Ill. - President Barack Obama's stimulus plan may be good for Caterpillar Inc., but the company's chief executive says the equipment maker will probably have to lay off more staff before it starts thinking about rehiring any of the more than 22,000 employees it already plans to cut.

"Even if a stimulus plan passes, it likely will not have an effect on the economy until late this year or early 2010, CEO Jim Owens said after a town hall meeting with the president and Caterpillar workers at a company tractor plant here on Thursday.

"The reality is we'll probably have to have more layoffs before we can start hiring again," Owens said without elaborating on timing or specific numbers."



Sorry... :-)



Geeze Matisyahu, get banned AGAIN???

And btw, my husband and I used to fly up to Martha's Vineyard for LUNCH!

Nothing worse than a "social climber," and that's obviously what camus-Matisyahu is... a wannabe "social climber!"

Puh!

Rick in MN
Gee--- using the big words AND from a high tax state as well!

Here's the FACTS: My husband is self-employed and pays a rather large amount of money for his and our son's mostly catastrophic needs health insurance policy. I also have a costly similiar plan separate from his. I hate that it's such flimsy coverage for so much money HOWEVER I DO NOT WANT GUBMINT or people like you encouraging gubmint to protect me or my family. I DON'T WANT YOUR "HELP" or "PROTECTION". Do ya get it yet? Gubmint screws up EVERYTHING it touches; I'd rather deal with what I have so all you do-gooders can just bug out.

Free Health Care
Anything free is worth what you paid for it.

That said, I reiterate my position that health care is not a right. It is what you can afford.

When health care is demanded as a "right", it is usually someone who doesn't want to pay for it. (Yes, Tyler, and leftists, et al, I went and read Obambi's sob stories.)

Nobody plans to fail in life, but there are many who fail to plan. That goes for there other needs such as retirement, housing, transportation, etc.

Just because YOU failed don't demand that I pay for it.

hard thought in KS
The typical conservative position - "as long as I have mine, screw everybody else".

edward....
That is such bs it doesn't deserve a reply.

Conservatives, and especially the dreaded Christian conservatives are generally more prudent and more charitable than liberals. It is liberals who live for the moment and expect somebody to bail them out when things don't work out. Conservatives are the ants and liberals are the grasshopper in the famous fable. You might be surprised to know that most conservatives aren't wealthy tycoons or media elites or even CEOs. But then you are either too selfish or brainwashed to care.

I am uninsured - it's my choice.
Over a career, $5/hour will yield 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS at retirement.
My employer offers $5 per hour in lieu of medical insurance, and I chose the money over the peace of mind. I'm one of the 45 million uninsured, and it's by choice.
My wife and I have raised 4 kids with never a penny from insurance, with 6 minor operations and complicated dental surgery.
No bureaucrat will offer us freedom of choice.

A correction for Sarah, Husker2
The 15% (45 millions) quoted as lacking insurance includes 12-20 millions malfeasant (illegally present in US--and who thus cannot be considered "Americans" in the sense of being US citizens) aliens: using the minimal figure, that comes to 4% of total population (and 26.7% of the uninsured) while the other extreme is 6.67% of total population (and 44.4% of all uninsured).

Edward from CA
At 2:48 p.m. you wrote: "The typical conservative position - "as long as I have mine, screw everybody else""

Try doing some research. It will only take a few moments on Google to find that conservatives give a far higher percentage of their income to charity than liberals give.

I guess you should rephrase your comment. Maybe something like, "The typical conservative position - "as long as the government stays out of it, I will give to others what they need.""

government works.
I recently called the SSA. I had a question about my benefits statement, as some how I had taxable as far as Social Security was concerned at the age of 12. Well, the woman was polite enough, but she couldn't answer my question. I was told I would get a reply in the mail in 90 days.
Had this been a question about a deduction or anything with a paycheck stub, my employer would have been able to give me an answer in a matter of minutes. But I have to wait for 3 months. And I wasn't actually told that my question would be answered at that.

correction
when I said taxable, that should have read taxable income. My child decided it was 20 questions time.
Maybe the government can fund a committee to look into why children always wait until they know their parents are busy with something to ask every question on their mind.
God knows the have spent plenty of money researching far more trivial aspects of human existence.

Scott from PA et al

Wait until people have t start waiting 90 days to get a letter in the mail from ObamaCare on what treatments they can receive.

dearest Edward (and other libs)...

"There is all the difference between demanding that a desirable state of affairs should be brought about by authorities, or even being willing to submit provided everyone else is made to do the same, and the readiness to do what one thinks right one's self at the sacrifice of one's own desires and perhaps in the face of hostile public opinion. There is much to suggest that we have in fact become more tolerant toward particular abuses and much more indifferent to inequities in individual cases, since we have fixed our eyes on an entirely different system in which the state will set everything right. It may even be, as has been suggested, that the passion for collective action is a way in which we now without compuction collectively indulge in that selfishness which as individuals we had learned a little to restrain. "

~Fredrich Hayek, The Road to Serfdom

(I suggest you read the rest of the book, as well)

Sorry Rick...
You just don't get it. What will happen with "salaried" government controlled health care, is the brightest and most capable will take their talents elsewhere.

krispypickles...
Get real! You are talking Fredrich Hayek and not Dr Seuss. I doubt many liberals would take the time or have the intellectual capacity to read and comprehend one paragraph written by the great Hayek, let alone an entire book.

Thatcher loved Hayek too.
And look at where those unregulated markets got us.


Bought any Chinese toothpaste lately, FeedFwd?

FeedFwd...
If a simpleton such as myself, clinging to her guns and her religion, can undertand Hayek, then certainly it should be no problem for the enlightened ones on the left.

;-)

Over-Regulation Destroys Our Markets
richard offers, "And look at where those unregulated markets got us."

Actually, it was the over-regulated Fannie and Freddie that got us into this mess. Instead of being run for profit, they are being run for politically correctness, such as getting loans to those that can least afford them. Thus, our housing inventories soared until the dead-beats began defaulting.

Since politicians own the roost, Wall-Street became the scape goat. Instead of Frank, Dodd, Pelosi, Reed and Obama walking the plank, we get nonsensical, populist accusations. Nobody likes rich people, so lets pretend all the rich people caused the problem. Nice.

Well, in a sense, rich people did cause the problem. Not people rich from commerce, but people rich from graft: Frank, Dodd, Pelosi, Reed and Obama.

Taxes Only Grows Gov't & Poverty
The more intrusive the government, the greater the poverty. Europe has not seen less than 10% unemployment for so long, it is normal to be poor. It is institutionalized. Obama and Liberals dream of such stuff.

Why not lower taxes, shrink government and grow jobs? More jobs, more money in the hands of consumers.

Next, change the laws to allow healthcare insurance to be bought and sold, by individuals, as easily as car insurance. Because the Gov't is not as involved, car insurance is cheap and portable -- not dependant on Gov't or Employers.

Why is it so important to Liberals to have someone else make decisions for them? Why not create a system where anyone can shop for insurance as they see fit, with their own money?

Holy cow! How do Liberals manage to eat?

c'mon Mac
If you start cutting back on government, all those govt employees will have to find real jobs and God forbid, compete for the chance to work for employers. Of course, if they have useful skills, they will do well and employers will be competing for them.

Richard, I completely miss your point. But in answer to your question, I get my topothpaste from my dentist. It is one of the things he does to compete. He gives me a new toothbrush, toothpaste, floss, and a package of sugarless gum everytime I visit. I did buy some toothpaste a few years ago on a business trip in Malaysia. It was Colgate, but most of the writing on the package was foreign to me. I think it was made in Malaysia. It worked fine for me, thanks for asking.

It's the marketplace, stupid
The government needs only invest in bringing more doctors and nurses into the US and training more new doctors and nurses. Increase the supply, reduce the cost. Pass laws to create more competition among insurance companies. Pass laws letting nurses treat minor problems and send people home. Let the marketplace take care of the problem.

Rick
Rick Location: MN
Reply # 20
Date: Jul 2, 2009 - 8:37 AM EST
OSW, waiting for this health care inflat
inflation to stop or at least line up with the GDP rate of growth is untenable.

This government based plan will compete with the commercial plans. In that way, there will be grades of offerings from those companies to compete. Yes, the plans will have fewer benefits, but then the system adjusts as time goes by.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You sir live in that Jim Jones kool-aid drinking Liberal world.

The government will compete with the commercial plans?

Will that be the same kind of competition as only the Postal Service can deliver first class mail, effectively cutting out UPS or FED-EX? And of course, which one of the three is drowning in red ink?

Larry mentioned in his article the problems of Medicare And Medicaid government sponsored health care programs we already have. Again two more programs drowning in red ink.

And lets not forget the V.A. health care joke to. Again RED INK!!!

So who is obfuscating here?

Quit drinking the kool-aid.

8 kids shot in Detroit...

All 8 schoolchildren will be treated free of charge.

The working class tax-payer will foot the bill.

This is the way it has always been here. If you work, you pay. If you don't work, it's free.

Obama's plan is one of control. Control over the life and death of those who 'do' work.

Obama = control freak


Replies
From a comment: "...conservatives give a far higher percentage of their income to charity"
That's because gifts to church count as charity, even if the church uses the gifts to pay the electric bill or for evangelizing for new members. I think of charity as money for food for the homeless, and not as money used to grow the church / business.
"I am uninsured - it's my choice." You must like to gamble with the mortgage money, too. Financially castrophic illnesses can and do happen to individuals at every age, regardless of "lifestyle choices". I know a family whose 6 year old son had a stroke(!). Initial onset of epilepsy can happen at any age; same with diabetes (regardless of whether or not the individual is overweight). If, God forbid, such a calamity occurs in your family, the taxpayer will wind up paying the bill.
"That said, I reiterate my position that health care is not a right. It is what you can afford." So, if you can't afford cancer treatments or anti-seizure medications or insulin, then, just don't get sick! Germany 1930s had a policy of removing "useless eaters" (defined as people who consumed more resources than they created). Is that what this poster wants for America?

OBAMACARE
WASHINGTON -- Americans who refuse to buy affordable medical coverage could be hit with fines of more than $1,000 under a health care overhaul bill unveiled Thursday by key Senate Democrats looking to fulfill President Obama's top domestic priority.
The Congressional Budget Office estimated the fines will raise around $36 billion over 10 years. Senate aides said the penalties would be modeled on the approach taken by Massachusetts, which now imposes a fine of about $1,000 a year on individuals who refuse to get coverage. Under the federal legislation, families would pay higher penalties than individuals.
In a revamped health care system envisioned by lawmakers, people would be required to carry health insurance just like motorists must get auto coverage now. The government would provide subsidies for the poor and many middle-class families, but those who still refuse to sign up would face penalties.
Called "shared responsibility payments," the fines would be set at least half the cost of basic medical coverage, according to the legislation.
In 2008, employer-provided coverage averaged $12,680 a year for a family plan, and $4,704 for individual coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation's annual survey. Senate aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the cost of the federal plan would be lower but declined to provide specifics.

You can read the rest at
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/02/senate-democrat s-trim-cost-health-care/

Better raise heck with Congress.

Who are those guys? Who pays?

Not seniors; they have Medicare. Not disabled; they have Medicare, too. Not responsible working people; their jobs provide it or they buy their own health insurance.

That leaves irresponsible people who can work, but don't.

Who pays? Taxpayers of course. Responsible people who earn their incomes and provide their own health care must pay for other peoples health care if national health care is enacted.

What do they get? Not enough. The $1.0 trillion for ten years allocated to 45 million people over 120 months is $185.00/month. Even if we have no inflation for 10 years, that provides very little coverage.

The whole idea is a big waste of money.

Revenues to the US Treasury are down 19% for FY 2009 year-to-date vs. same period of FY 2008. This is no time to increase spending with new programs.

To Rick and other Libs
Please take the following advice:

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."- Sam Adams

As usual...
As usual, Larry Elder's column is insightful and spot on.

As usual, Barack Obama is an incompetent moron who is going to destroy America if he is not reined in.

As usual, I'm disgusted. We should send Obama back to Kenya, where he was born.

45 Millionn can't pay or don't want to?
There are already different social programs to help those who truly can't pay. Low income and single mom's or mom's-to-be can apply for medical care while pregnant and after a period of time for themselves & their children. Often people who don't have medical insurance could afford it but, choose otherwise, ie-to not do without something or other & hope they will not need it. Not fair. We have a good insurance from my husbands employment that was very reasonable, even when we had to pick up the amount the employer paid after he retired. I object to this stupid, control my life plan Mr. Obama is trying to ram down our throats. He only wants to control everything. I object, I will not be voting for anyone that supports this socialist ideas.

GeorgiaGal
'From a comment: "...conservatives give a far higher percentage of their income to charity"
That's because gifts to church count as charity, even if the church uses the gifts to pay the electric bill or for evangelizing for new members. I think of charity as money for food for the homeless, and not as money used to grow the church / business.'

This comment shows how little you know about what goes on at church or other Christian ministires. One particular ministry in our area operates a food pantry, where qualifying families receive vouchers for groceries and other consumable household items. They also run a resale shop, which is stocked entirely from donations by individuals and businesses in the community. Anyone can shop there, but qualifying families receive vouchers where they can "buy" clothing, furniture, toys, housewares, etc... Money brought in from the resale shops goes to fund other areas of need. For instance, the ministry will help needy families with their electric bills... HOWEVER, to qualify, one must also accept counseling for how to properly manage money.

And therein lies the difference betwetn STATE run charity, and charity between individuals... ACCOUNTABILITY! It is too easy for one to accept a check from a faceless government and go on about your business, making the same mistakes and not changing one's behavior in a way that will improve one's lot in life, and quite another to accept true compassion from a PERSON, who expects nothing in return, but that the receiver may feel a debt of gratitude and perhaps feel compelled to action on his/her part. The problem you liberals have, is your definition of "help".

Waiting
is something Americans don't tolerate well. In the age of instant gratification, medical care is expected to stand up and fly right.

Well, it doesn't work that way. Clinics aren't too overwhelmed, but ER's are inundated. What would work are small jack-in-the box clinics spread throughout a large city which would then discern if ER care is necessary.

We have that sort of thing in Colorado but it it doesn't work all that well. First of all, you don't know if you're going to get an older doc with experience or someone fresh out of med school.

Years ago, my son's roommate was feeling terrible, went to a jack in the box and was told he had the flu. Go home and take two aspirins...etc. The next call came from a hospital in Denver who told my son, if you want to see your roommate, you need to come now. His friend had such bad heart failure that is output (how much blood you can pump to the rest of your body) was only 30%. Some misdiagnosis, huh?

It is not difficult to diagnose heart failure. As a home health care RN, I did it on aq number of occasions and sent my client to the hospital via 911. But if you are very young, need to work on your skills, or pressed for time...you might just kill someone.

Judith
While I'm sure you're highly qualified as a home health nurse, and indeed may have a bit of experience as a more general nurse, I think that you would have likely been hard-pressed to diagnose what sounds like heart failure secondary to viral-induced cardiomyopathy at the time when it was just a viral illness (before it had caused the cardiomyopathy). The idea that someone "fresh out of medical school" would be in a doc-in-the-box clinic is wrong - in order to be able to practice medicine (with your own license, not under an attending's license), you must have completed at least 1 year of graduate medical education, and many states require that you complete a residency first - at least 3 years of treating patients with someone with many years of experience looking over your shoulder to catch any mistakes you make in diagnosing and treating non-textbook illness.
While it is terrible that your son's roommate passed away, such things do still happen - we don't have any good way of predicting when a viral illness is going to spread to and damage cardiac muscle, we don't have good treatment for such virii if we could detect them, and we don't have the ability to regrow cardiac muscle once it's damaged. If we do have any of those things, the "fresh-out-of-med-school" types would be more likely up to date on them than the grandfatherly types.

I second this.
My mother has had viral-induced cardiomyopathy since 1998, and indeed, she went misdiagnosed for months until she got herself a new doctor.

Which costs ??
If Obama really wanted to reduce the cost of health care, he would address the very high added cost of lawyers up and down the entire health care chain!!
When a fine is imposed in a criminal case, or a parking ticket, the money does not go to the victim. So why not have the "punitive damages" punishments anywhere in the health care products and services food chain go to paying for health care for those without insurance??

Forget universal health care, let's have universal legal services (we already have public defenders) so we can do away with the "excuse" for contingency representation and the quest for "lotto" type awards ... for the lawyers!! AND if the lawyers question the quality of the legal services provided by the government, they can explain how they are so much different from the critical medical care to be provided by ObamaCare.

Senator Elder
Larry, forget what the republican party wants...Run for the senate...Hurry up and get in the door.....Don't wait...
Run Larry Run.
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